Luis Magalhaes: Welcome, ladies and gentlemen, to another episode of the DistantJob Podcast. This podcast is a podcast that is usually about building and managing and leading remote teams who win. And I’m your host, Luis. But today, it’s a bit different. We do talk about those things, but we also talk a lot more about the future. We talk about privacy and the future of privacy in the Internet and in all the things that are touched by the Internet today and that will be touched by the Internet in the future, and your virtual identity, and how that impacts remote work.
My guest is Emidio Do Sacramento. This is not his title, but I would actually go as far as to call him as a futurologist, and he is an incredible storyteller. So be warned. This episode is heavy on stories, and we take a bit to get into the topic on remote work. But I enjoyed it a lot. I loved my conversation with Emidio, and I think that you will love my conversation with Emidio too. So, yes, without any further ado, I bring you Emidio Do Sacramento.
Emidio, welcome. And tell us, tell our listeners a little bit about yourself and what you do.
Emidio: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me with you. It’s an honor and a pleasure to be on your podcast.
Luis Magalhaes: It’s my pleasure.
Emidio: What do we do? We try to go against the status quo. We try to build really a system to… that really secures your biometric assets and your digital heritage. So digital heritage, what we call, is those things that you typed 10 years ago, 10 years before. And then suddenly someone says, “Hey, Emidio, I saw that you wrote something about this 10 years ago.” And I say, “Oh, damn, I forgot about that.”
There is a lot of things that are being left on the Internet, sometimes personal, sometimes very personal. And we have this kind of illusion of… think that it is secure because we believe in brands. So we believe in a logo. We believe in companies like… we used to believe in companies like Google or like Microsoft. And when we go to put our infos on these companies, and we put the infos on their servers, we tend to, yeah, to get this illusion of security. But that’s not the case, and we’ve seen on many news that there are a lot of problems with that leaks [inaudible 00:03:23].
So that’s the data heritage that we wanted to protect. So how can we protect our identity using our most complex, let’s say, identification assets that we have in your body, which is biometrics. How can we use that in a way that is different from what we are doing today so that you have always the control of how your data is accessed?
So the only way we’ve found out is to go more into the human behavior side instead of the machine systems. Because today you just put your finger on your fingerprint reader on your device or you use your facial recognition, and then the device itself decides if it’s you.
It’s a funny thing, right? A machine decides if you are who you claim to be. And the machine decides that to give you access to your device, which is cool, right? We think it’s nice. Well, let’s think in 50 years from now, 60, a hundred years from now with AI. Think about a smartphone that’s going to think maybe faster than you, and is going to say, “Hey, maybe I’m going to trick this guy.”
It looks like a science fiction. A lot of people thinks it’s a science fiction thing. Well, okay. Let them imagine that. But it’s not. It’s where we are going. So I think that the best way is to rethink about how we as humans behave. So now we saw each other. We talked to each other. So I recognize your voice. I recognize your face. So now if we see each other again, we can recognize ourselves.
So I think that our solution, the main difference is this, is that our biometric templates are not any longer stored on any device. And whenever you try to access a hardware, being your car, your home, or your smartphone, well, actually, you activate keys. So those keys are stored, some in local, and some, they’re centralized in the cloud. So when you identify yourself with your iris, your face, your finger, your veins, whatever you decide to use as a technology, your biometrics are going to activate those keys.
Now, a lot of people says, “But if the keys are in the cloud, anybody can have them.” And I said, “Yes, it’s a good thing. You are walking in the middle of New York. You find a key in the ground. What do you do with it if you don’t know to which door it should go?” So there is a security system that you put in place so that these keys have other keys that protect themselves. So it’s a little bit complex, but it’s really to mimic a human behavior.
So let’s give you a very short example. If you go home and you have your family, first thing, you open the door of your home. So you have a key. So then, you go in. And then you have your wife that says, “Hey. Hi.” That’s a second key. She recognizes you. Then maybe there’s your son or your daughter or whatever. So you have different keys that says, “Okay, this is you.” And then the house can detect that you have your phone with you, so there are other biometrics that can say, “Okay, this is really you.”
So we want to mimic the same thing for digital. So it means that if the device was unlocked by Emidio, the device recognized that it’s my fingerprint. The device recognized that it’s my face. But suddenly it says, “Emidio is in Paris. Why someone is trying to unlock the phone from Lausanne?”
Luis Magalhaes: Ah, I see.
Emidio: So it’s other factors that go… this is why we call it “intelligent’ keys. It means that it is not just unlocking. But then, once it is unlocked, these keys, in real time, analyze pressure, temperature, geo-localization. All these sensors that we have on the devices are used to be sure it is really you using your identity and accessing your files. That’s what we’re trying to do. It was long, but…
Luis Magalhaes: Let’s say my Gmail. I have two-factor authentication on my Gmail, you know?
Emidio: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Luis Magalhaes: As I think everyone should. But if you steal my phone and you know my password, you can input my password, and you can also use my authentication, my authentication on my phone. So now you have access to my email.
Now, what you’re saying is that the moment… that this is a system that would figure out, I don’t know if it’s me, then, typing the email, or something like that. It’s like the email software would recognize that, “Wait a minute, this isn’t Luis,” or something like that. Did I understand it correctly?
Emidio: Absolutely. There are a hundred and thirty-eight, and we’re trying to even go higher, in points of differentiation. So it can be, like I said, geolocalization or, your gyroscope or the time or the temperature, the air pressure, where you are the moment, what network are you using, what Wi-Fi network are you using, what device are you using. So there’s a lot of things. But also how you type. I make mistakes always on the same words, for example, and I type on the same speed. And I’m left-handed. So there are so many things that defines who I am. But it’s exactly that point that you said.
Luis Magalhaes: But on the other hand, what happens… I mean, let’s say, if you fail a key just completely by accident, let’s say that your phone thinks that you’re supposed to be in Lisbon, let’s say, because you were supposed to depart from Lausanne. But you actually missed your flight, and you had to go back home. And now your house won’t let you inside because you’re right, [inaudible 00:09:48] “He had a flight. He was supposed to be in Lisbon. This guy isn’t Emilio… Emidio.” I mean, how does it account for just plans not going as they were supposed to be going?
Emidio: Yeah. Then it depends on two things. First, it is what level of security do you want to have in your life? Are you an FBI agent or 007? Or you’re just a normal user? So it depends on what you want to secure. Because we know that today, like, the last, latest LG device, you can scan the veins of your palm. What I’m trying to say is that… and there are things that you cannot duplicate yet. So if there is a situation like this, you would be, let’s use the word “forced” to use an identification which is more secure than facial and fingerprint. So we would maybe scan your veins of your finger or the veins of your palm, depending on what device you’re using… if you activated that level of security.
Luis Magalhaes: I see.
Emidio: The user. It’s the user that decides, “Well, I don’t want to be tracked. I don’t want my phone to follow me. I just want to know this. I just…” We are just giving different options and different levels so that you can approach a hundred percent of security. No one likes to say a hundred percent, but the more we want to approach your security… it depends on the user itself.
The only thing we give is the options, and the only reason we gave these options, why we want to go so secure and so tricky about all these things, is because what you said before. You have dual authentication. Okay. But you know what’s the biggest problem today with passwords? Is when you trust people.
The worst thing since decades is trust. It’s the worst thing in the world. Talking about business and corporations, trust is the biggest virus in security and passwords and access to data without authorization. So we want to take that trust out. We don’t want people to not trust themselves, okay?
Luis Magalhaes: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Emidio: But we want to take that trust risk, which is, Oh, I worked with you one day. “Okay, I don’t know Emidio.” I worked with you one year. “Hey, listen, I need to check one thing. I don’t have my password.” “Ah, come one, take mine. My buddy. Take my password.” No, you don’t want that. We need to cut that trust. And that’s why, you know, these intelligent keys that says, “Okay, this is Emidio’s password. He came. He showed up. He showed his face. He showed his fingerprint or finger veins. But it’s not him anymore using the device. It’s someone else.” So I think we need this real-time biometric authentication to be given to the public, and not only for corporations, but also for your mobile space or all the devices that go digital.
Luis Magalhaes: Yeah. So that brings me to a point that I wanted to talk about, because as we’ve talked about before, I’m in the business of helping companies and organizations build their remote teams, so build teams where maybe someone will be in the Ukraine and someone else will be in Lisbon, someone else will be in Switzerland, et cetera.
And one of the common concerns is, “Okay, so what we do about security? How do we make sure that our company stuff is only accessed by the person?” Because if you have all the laptops in an office, we can see who comes in and out of the office. But if suddenly the people are working at their places or maybe even at the café or a co-working space, and our crucial company information is in their laptops, well, that’s a security risk. So how do you think that the stuff that you’ve developed can contribute to decreasing this security risk?
Emidio: I think it goes back to what I was telling you before, is how we can we manage to mimic the human behavior. So imagine that you are in an office with real people, in real time. So you enter into the office, like the example, you go home. So if no one knows you in the office, they’re going to say, “What are you doing here?”
Luis Magalhaes: Yeah, exactly.
Emidio: But without knowing, these people are securing the office.
Luis Magalhaes: I see.
Emidio: They are not paid for that, but they are securing the office. Because they don’t know you, they’re going to ask you, “What are you doing here?” Or if they don’t ask you, they’re going to ask someone else, “Who’s that guy?” So they are securing the office indirectly.
So I think it’s to mimic that into zeroes and ones. So if someone is working remotely, we need to have a real-time scan, if this person is really the person she claims to be. But then you start talking about privacy.
Okay, if you want privacy when you work remotely, you have two choices. One is not work for my company. And second is to log off of your professional account and log into a personal account. So this means that you are in your personal, private space. You’re not tracked, you’re not logged, you’re not scanned in real time. But when you’re logged into your professional account, you’re working with a corporation, you have confidentiality agreements, you have all this access to very sensitive files… you need to accept to be tracked or scanned or analyzed.
So again, it always depends with what are you doing. If you’re just writing a book, maybe it’s not so private. But if you’re dealing with national security, or if you’re dealing with research laboratories, I think that it’s very important that we really put this security at the highest level by having this real-time security again, to mimic… it’s like these keys are other humans that are just taking things… I mean, reacting like if they are your friends or your enemies, let’s say.
Luis Magalhaes: So I’m wondering if this approach of yours, and I assume so, but let me know, if it goes anyway towards helping us get to the bottom of a unified online identification. Because right now, what we have is the majority of stuff or the majority of the places that I work in the Internet, not necessarily in my company, but when I work for my company, but with some online service, let’s say that I want to create some pictures for marketing, and I log in to Canva. I have a password. That’s basically the way that Canva identifies me. It’s because I have a password. That password is basically Luis’s digital face for that application. Then I have a different password for Facebook. And that’s how Facebook assumes that it knows that Luis is Luis, because only Luis should know that password.
So really, we have several different online identities, one for each website, because we’ve been told, and I think rightly so, that this is the secure thing. Because if I have the same password for all websites, that’s just a massive security risk.
But what you’re saying here is if the password is me, if I am the password, then suddenly there is no risk, because there is only one of me. And it’s not like my dog can use my face or my fingerprint or something like that to log in. If my dog will be able to use my password, he could just get the nose on the keyboard and type the password and access my websites.
Luis Magalhaes: So do you think it’s possible that there is a future where we don’t need to use passwords online anymore, we can just use ourselves as our key? Or is there any security risk involved in this that I’m not thinking about?
Emidio: Well, I would never dare to say that we’ve figured out everything. But definitely, that’s the direction we want to take and that we are taking, is that your body is your password. A lot of people raised the question, “Yeah, but with a password, if I lose my password, or if someone gets my password, I can change it. But I cannot change my fingerprint. I cannot change my iris. I cannot change…” well, maybe a little bit, my face. But not so much.
Luis Magalhaes: You can burn the tips off your fingers.
Emidio: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So it’s difficult. It’s more difficult to change those kind of passwords. So this is why we are creating solutions so that you can even if someone does a trick and has a photo or has a mask, all these things you see on YouTube, that has a mask, that has this and that, that’s again what I said at the beginning.
That’s exactly the issue, is because phones are so dumb. Because they just need to say, “Oh, this matches a template. Oh, it’s Emidio. Open.” That’s it. Finished. A hundred-thousand-dollar device just do a very idiot thing. It’s like saying, “Oh, is this guy this guy?” And the other one says, “Yeah, it’s him.” And then the person says, “Oh, get into the bank. Take the money.” No, that’s what phones are doing right now. “Oh, this is Emidio.” “No, it’s just a mask.” “Oh, sorry.”
So I think that, yes, we’re going to a unified solution. And the main problem we are facing right now is that companies are so much in a race for their ego, okay?
Luis Magalhaes: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Emidio: Apple wants the face ID. They purchased the company that made the face ID, and I think they are from Europe, so that no one does it. So it’s like Apple can do security, but others cannot do security. And then Samsung puts another thing, and then LG puts another thing, and then another brand will come up with another thing. And then they want to go to the press and say, “Hey, we did…”
I think there is a huge problem that these big companies are not taking care about, is what we are creating with AI and machine learning. I read recently in news, there was a machine-learning algorithm with AI that got access to a database of face recognition. So they found out how to draw a face that was come out of mixing all the faces. And that face could unlock a thousand accounts.
Luis Magalhaes: Wow.
Emidio: So this is where we are going. So I think that yes, we need to have a unified system for identification, and sorry about repeating, that mimics the human behavior, how we look to people. If I say I am this person, and there is a doubt, maybe we can have other persons that are needed to identify myself and to say this is really the person that should be there.
I think we need this, yes, absolutely yes. Because the way it is done right now, sorry, but it’s very old-fashioned. Even if it’s nice, like, you say, “My God, I can scan the palms of my hands on my new LG,” whatever, okay? And what else? Once you scan and you unlock, there is no more security.
And then if you use another device, you cannot use the palm of your hand. So what’re you going to do? “Oh. Oh, damn. Oh yeah, I cannot have the same…” Oh, then I have a Samsung. “Oh, I can use my iris.” And then you go to Apple. “Oh, I don’t have fingerprint anymore.” Or maybe they’re going to have again. So for the consumer, it’s a lot of fights between these companies, and who loses on this fight? Us, the users. But-
Luis Magalhaes: No, it’s a good point, that, look, I can have… I mean again, you’re showing that it’s not as secure as someone thinks. But let’s assume for a moment that my iPhone is smart enough to understand the difference between my face and a mask or a photo. Let’s say that we have the technology to that point, and Apple just has the most perfect facial recognition, almost impossible to fool Apple, you know?
Emidio: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yep.
Luis Magalhaes: It’s right and everything. Okay. I’m still using it to unlock my phone. And then I go to my bank’s website, and I’m using a regular password there, because the bank doesn’t have that technology as the iPhone.
Emidio: Exactly. Exactly.
Luis Magalhaes: So it truly is just a very inconsistent security system so far. So tell me about the day when you realized that this was something that was important for you to tackle, and that you could indeed tackle this industry and have ideas on this industry? What was the day like when that light bulb went on in your head?
Emidio: I think it’s when Steve Jobs died.
Luis Magalhaes: Really?
Emidio: Yeah. We made a phone in 2007. It was the first Swiss smartphone. The name of the phone was the [Xenon Opus 00:23:37]. Everybody was thinking I was crazy and this and that, because I was launching a phone at that moment. And actually, it worked quite fine. We had quite good success. But that’s 10 years ago. Who cares? But that’s how we entered into the business. And it was a lot about understanding how you can differentiate yourself and how you can enter into your market and solve or create a niche or create a momentum with any product that you do in any industry.
Why I go to Steve Jobs is because we cannot become Steve Jobs. We cannot become Elon Musk. We cannot become Bill Gates. I mean, these people are who they are because they are how they are, and we are what we are. But this guy always had this thinking of 20, 30 years ahead of everyone, okay?
Luis Magalhaes: Yeah.
Emidio: He was saying that he didn’t care about the SIM cards 15 years ago. And now we’re starting to talk about the eSIM. He said that he didn’t care about, I don’t know, whatever thing on the computers. Oh, the CD players. And he just takes it out, because he knew that the storage would evolve into the cloud.
So it was always this forward thinking that was insane, that at the time he was bringing things, people are saying, “Well…” And then five years after, “Oh, that’s perfect.” Okay.
Luis Magalhaes: Yeah, I remember perfectly when he introduced the iPad, you know, “This is the new way everyone is going to read books.” Everyone laughed at him, right?
Luis Magalhaes: [crosstalk 00:25:24] “How weird is that? It looks like something out of a Star Trek movie. No one is ever going to have a tablet in their lives,” you know?
Emidio: And look now. Yeah.
Luis Magalhaes: Yeah. Some people don’t even use laptops anymore, never mind [crosstalk 00:25:39] laptops.
Luis Magalhaes: Some people just use their iPads with laptop-like keyboards. So yeah.
Emidio: Absolutely. And so six, seven years ago, my partner… yeah, five years ago, he said, “Emidio, we should come back to the market with a product.” And I said, “I don’t know.” It was just before he died, passed away. I said, “This is not the right time.” And then he said, “Why?” I said, “I don’t know.”
And when he passed away, I said, “Oops. I think that we’re going to have a curve on innovation.” And Adrian, which is my partner, he said, “Why’re you saying that? That’s not true. You know, they will continue doing incredible stuff.” And I said, “No, you will see. In five years from now, everyone will be the same thing like in 2007.”
Because when we put the phone in 2007, it was a Windows phone. When you were entering into the shops at that moment, the phones were all the same bulky, gray look. All brands of Windows phone, they were gray. It looked like they only had that paint in China, that color paint. So they were all gray. They all looked the same. And we came with a phone that was black with metal around. It was like a revolution. So I said, “This is going to happen again.” And he said, “Well, I don’t think so.”
Look, I went to the shop yesterday in Lisbon. All the phones are black… iPhone design, Samsung design, they all look the same. And this is because there is more Steve Jobs. And this created this problem.
I saw this problem coming. And then I said, “But you know, Adrian, it’s not about only bringing beautiful devices,” because everybody can design beautiful things today, everybody. Any company of any size can design a beautiful thing, a beautiful product. I said, “I think that the problem today is about your heritage, your digital heritage. That will become a problem, because we are so much putting more and more things on Internet. And this is going to become problem later, because we’re going to put, I think…”
I was telling at that time, “I think we’re going to put everything in there. I mean, digital, I mean, it can be medical data, it can be financial data. We’re going to do e-bank.” We were starting to do a lot of e-banking and apps and all these malwares and spywares coming into the device. I was like, “[inaudible 00:28:14] going to be a mess.”
Luis Magalhaes: And sorry to interrupt, but I was thinking about this when you were talking about this earlier, at the start of the interview. And it’s like, the stuff that I put on the Internet 10 years ago is still there. But I’m a different person. It’s not like I am ashamed of those things that I put 10 years ago, because it was me. But I’m a different person. Those things that I wrote on the Internet 10 or 15 years ago, I don’t necessarily hold those opinions anymore. And I don’t feel that I should be held accountable to those opinions, because if we don’t change opinions in 15 years, then that doesn’t say a lot of good things about us, right?
Emidio: Absolutely. You’re so right. So again, we go to the heritage. This thing will follow your life forever. And what happens if this thing goes to the hands of people that don’t like you or that want to harm you? So what happens when what politicians do to themselves will happen also with people do to themselves by using your heritage against you? Like you said, things you said that you thought that it was what you liked at that moment are not anymore, because you evolved. So I said, “This is a danger, and we need to find a way to protect our identity.”
Luis Magalhaes: Yeah, exactly.
Emidio: And this is how it all started.
Luis Magalhaes: Yeah. It’s like you were a terrible person 15 years ago, so you must obviously be a terrible person today, right?
Emidio: You see? Yeah, that’s it.
Luis Magalhaes: It’s like there’s no… someone growing up, someone becoming a better person. In essence, it’s not impossible, but it’s unbelievable. It’s like a new paradigm. People don’t believe. People hold you accountable to your past in a way that before the Internet was almost unbelievable.
Emidio: Absolutely. So you need, we need, to create an army, digital army, to protect you. And I’m going to explain you what is an army. It’s the keys I told you. Because you’re going to have driverless cars. You’re going to be accessing your bank from an airplane. You’re going to voice command your home. You’re going to have a scan of your iris and have a medical diagnosis in a pharmacy. So you’re going to access a lot of things differently in a few years.
What if someone goes and fakes your identity the way it is today, and says, “Emidio, what were you doing last night?” “Oh, I was with my mother.” “No, you were not.” “Yes, I was.” “No, no, you were seen here. You see, this is your fingerprint. This is your access code. So you were there.” There are no ways that you can prove that you were not there… or it’s going to be difficult to prove.
Think again. Today, you try to prove to humans as a human. Now, imagine that if one day you’ll be in court, and somehow in 40 or 50 years from now, some people will say, “Oh, machines also have rights, because they think.” Trust me, someone’s going to arise [crosstalk 00:32:02] and say, “Machines have rights.”
Luis Magalhaes: Oh yeah, absolutely.
Emidio: So imagine when one machine will be in court with you.
Luis Magalhaes: Yeah, I imagine that. That’s why, whenever I’m using Siri, I always make sure to say, “Please” and “Thank, you, Siri.”
Luis Magalhaes: “Please” and “Thanks.”
Emidio: Otherwise, it’s going to get mad, right?
Luis Magalhaes: Exactly.
Emidio: [inaudible 00:32:18] knock at your door. “Hey, you, [inaudible 00:32:20].” So how can you protect yourself from a machine that has apparently more power to think faster than you? How can you protect yourself by yourself with your human brain? I think we will not be able to have that power.
So what we can do is to create this little army of these keys that are intelligent keys that says, “No, he was not there. This is the proof. This is [inaudible 00:32:55],” so that you can be stronger in front of this situation. But again, today, in today’s world, when we talk like this, yeah, people are going to say, “Yeah, Emidio, yeah, yeah. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. We’ll see about that when the times comes.” No, we need to see that now, because when the times come, it’s going to be too late. So-
Luis Magalhaes: Yeah. We’re going to worry about this once the robot armies are upon us, and we’re like, “Oh, damn.”
Emidio: Yeah, but it’s not even that. I’ll give you an example of today, okay? Tesla is in autonomous-driving mode accidents. You know that now, who fault is?
Luis Magalhaes: Exactly.
Emidio: Is it the car in front? Is it the car itself? Is it Tesla? Is it the software? Is it the driver? Is the street? Whose fault is? So the press says, “Oh, the autonomous driver [inaudible 00:33:54].” Then Tesla says, “Oh, it’s written that the driver must be this.” Oh, but for the moment, no one was killed. So imagine the day that an autonomous car kills someone. Who fault is? How you’re going to prove that you were not inside that car? “Oh, Emidio, it’s your Tesla. It was in driverless mode.” “But it was not me inside.” “Oh well, it looks like it was you, because when you turned on the car, it was with your fingerprint.” “Yeah, but then my friend took the car.” How can we know that?
So there is a lot of things that we are creating that, again, we really need to start creating another sort of heritage, which is securing your heritage. So when you post something, you can put a little key that say, “You know, I’m going to post this thing, but, like, in three or four days, just lock it. Don’t show it to anyone else nevermore, and only if I open you again.” So we need to have this security to ourselves in today’s world, really.
Luis Magalhaes: Or even default to that. You actually need to actively say if you want that thing to be permanent, right?
Luis Magalhaes: Just default to erasing it, you know?
Emidio: Absolutely. Absolutely.
Luis Magalhaes: Hi there. It’s Luis. Welcome to the intermission of the DistantJob Podcast. If you’re listening to this podcast, there’s a very big chance that you’re interested in building a great remote team. And to build a great remote team, you need great remote employees. That’s where DistantJob comes in.
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Then, once we have an exact picture of what we’re looking for, we’re off to the races. Our recruiters tap into their global network, and we filter people very well, so that you don’t waste your time interviewing people that are never going to be of interest to you. We make sure, because we are techies, and our recruiters are techies as well. So when people get to you, they are already pre-selected, and you just have to decide between the cream of the crop.
And once you make your selection, we handle all the paperwork. We handle HR for you. We handle payments. And you get a full-time remote employee that’s among the best in the world, and managed entirely by you, by your processes, and following your culture. If this sounds good, visit us at www.distantjob.com. And without further ado, let’s get back with the show. Thank you for listening.
I mean, this raises a lot of important topics. Obviously, regarding the remote work industry, it does seem that what you’re proposing is super important to helping companies like the ones that I work with secure their workplaces and secure their employees and all of that.
But I want to know a bit about your business. Does your business have any remote component at all? Do you work from home, or do any people working for you work from home? How has remote work made your business possible, or helped make it better, if at all?
Emidio: I think it was one of the most beautiful things, was to start doing remote. Even in 2007, the company was in Lausanne, the designer was in Singapore.
Luis Magalhaes: Wow.
Emidio: The mechanical engineering was in Germany, the factory was in China, the investors came from United States, and everything went so well. Can you imagine one thing? One incredible thing? The name of the designer is Jarin. One day, we were talking on Skype, and we said this, “Jarin?” And he said, “What, Emidio?” “But Jarin?” And he said, “What?” And I said, “We never call each other.” And he said, “You’re right.”
We were typing and designing a device. We are only texting on Skype. We designed a device, a smartphone, by typing.
Luis Magalhaes: Wow.
Emidio: In two years and a half, we never heard each other’s voice.
Luis Magalhaes: Wow, that’s [crosstalk 00:38:30].
Emidio: And we laughed. We talked about private things; we talked about professional. And then I said, “This is ridiculous. Let’s make a video call.” And two years and a half after, we made a video call, and we saw each other. So it was like, “What the hell.”
So yeah, remote work, it has been all my life. Because I mean, the mix of cultures, of knowledge, of know-how, of visions, of ages, of ethnics… it’s so beautiful. You create so much bigger things than to say, “Oh, I’m in Switzerland. Got to use the Swiss economy and the Swiss knowledge.”
No. Not now. I mean, when you open your company to remote workers, then you have really an opportunity into this world. But that’s what I always thought. And whatever I’ve done, I’ve always been working with remote people and with less and less people that come to an office.
Luis Magalhaes: Well, I have a couple of questions for that. First of all, you had someone in Singapore. You had someone in Germany. You were in Switzerland. And then you need to talk to investors in the US. So that’s a lot of different timezones. What was your process to make sure that you were able to juggle all of this and could communicate with all these people and still get some sleep?
Emidio: In Switzerland, I was going to bed at 4:00 AM and waking up at 2:00 PM.
Luis Magalhaes: Wow. That sounds [crosstalk 00:40:08] tough. That sounds tough. I [crosstalk 00:40:10].
Emidio: That’s it. That was the only way. So [crosstalk 00:40:14] from 11:00 PM until 4:00 AM so I could be with people from the US, depending where in the US. So it was [inaudible 00:40:23] it was eight hours [inaudible 00:40:24]. And then I could manage to be with Asia and the United States from 11:00 PM to 4:00 AM. And then from 2:00 PM to 6:00 or 8:00 PM, I could be with Europe.
And sometimes I changed. Sometimes I would change that time, because I would be… you need to work more with Germany. So I would more go to sleep at 2:00 AM so that I could be fresh in the morning for Germany. So it depending, but most of the time was, yeah, just to… yeah, that creates another problem in your private life [crosstalk 00:41:05] and with your friends and family, because when they are sleeping, you’re awake, and when you’re awake, they are sleeping.
But that was the only possible way to do. For example, for a conference call. Can you imagine? Asia, Germany and the United States and Europe?
Luis Magalhaes: Yeah.
Emidio: I mean, Germany is Europe. Okay. But it was very complicated to keep normal office hours, let’s say. So that’s how we managed, and it went very well. We had no issues at all to do eight people in the call with Chinese, Germans, Swiss, and Americans on the same conference call. Everybody was happy. Someone was in the morning. Someone was in late afternoon. Someone was beginning of the afternoon. So that’s how we managed.
Luis Magalhaes: Well, you did you have to have some personal sacrifice there, as you pointed out.
Luis Magalhaes: I mean, I guess that it was working for you, that you still did that.
Emidio: Yeah. Absolutely. And again, it’s really [inaudible 00:42:07] you find… I mean, I could never find a guy at that moment in 2007 that could make a design like Jarin. It’s exactly what we were looking for. So he was in Singapore. I mean, there is no need to bring the person into Switzerland. I mean, it’s the same person in Singapore or in Switzerland. The guy will not change his brain if he travels to Switzerland.
And with video, like, you said, if you do a video call, I mean, it’s digital. Okay, there is no human whatever, blah, blah, blah. But for business, I don’t think you need to have everybody in the same office working anymore, really.
Luis Magalhaes: Okay, so that’s something that I want to pick up on, because what I hear from a lot of my guests is that really video is a fundamental piece. It’s super important for you to get the emotion across, for you to understand the feelings of people that they might not necessarily transmit to writing, that video is a key component work.
But I’m talking with a man who designed a smartphone for two years using only text. So what do you think, if you can think about it, what was the factor in your success, in your writing communication, that helped you? Was it just that you found the perfect person to communicate with? Were you just in tune from the start? How could you be so successful in written communication that apparently is a big blocker for so many people?
Emidio: It’s because I was lucky, like you said, to find the right person, because working with someone remotely or working with someone in an office, it’s a huge, huge struggle to find the right people. It’s the same problem in Ukraine, in China, in Germany, in United States, in Spain, whatever country you go. It’s not you post something on the Internet, “I’m trying to find someone remotely to design,” and the first guy who’s going to answer is going to say, “Oh, this is a very good design.” No, it doesn’t happen like that.
So it was a lot of research, a lot of research, a lot of reading, a lot of reading, a lot of research on the Internet. I found some of the designs of Jarin. I wrote to him. He replied to me one year and a half later.
Luis Magalhaes: Wow.
Emidio: So it was, like, “Hey, I saw your message.” And I was like, “What message? Who are you?” And he said, “I’m Jarin.” I said, “Who’s Jarin?” And he said, “You said you liked my designs.” And I was, like, “Oh. Okay, yes, yes, yes. Yes, I wrote something to you one year ago.” And he said, “Sorry, I don’t know why this email was… I don’t know where…” So the guy answered one year after.
So to go back to your question, it’s really… I was lucky that he replied to me, because then we could really create… he really understood… we had some sort of bond. When I said, “I would like this device to have this kind of shapes,” and I was sending him images of something that didn’t nothing to do, sometimes it was furniture, sometimes it was a car. sometimes it was a flower, about the shapes. And he was understanding so well and bringing always something even more beautiful than I was imagining. So there was a bond between me and him, and together we could create incredible stuff.
But how to find those people, trust me, is very hard. Let me give you just an example now. My company, one year ago, we were eight, one year and a half ago, and I put everybody out.
Luis Magalhaes: Wow.
Emidio: And now I put again everybody. And now we are happy. All of us, we are happy. Now we have… I’ll give an example. We have the vice president of LG. We have a portfolio manager of PayPal. We have a bank director. We have [inaudible 00:46:09] that invented the tablet. The guy worked for Microsoft. He invented the TrueType font for Apple. He is now on the team also.
But it was a lot of fight, a lot of research, a lot of consistence, and the belief that I would find the A Team, the dream team that I wanted for my project. So every CEO or every HR, it’s not going to be easy to find these people. But once you find it, it doesn’t matter where they are. They can be in Mars, if they want. It really works perfectly.
Luis Magalhaes: I mean, that segues into the next question that I have, was that you say that you were lucky with that guy, with the original designer. But now you just told me that you spent a huge effort trying to find the right people. So what are the questions? Or maybe, what do you look for, not really to look for the qualifications, to know if the person is good at their job, but specifically, how do you find people that you think, “Okay, this person is going to work well remotely. You know, this is not just a great professional at marketing or at managing the company or at creating beautiful fonts, but this is actually someone that will be able to communicate with me and to be accountable in the way that that designer was”?
Emidio: It’s very simple. To work for me, you need to be crazier than me in terms of you want to change the world? Okay. You want to solve a problem? Okay. You need to be crazier than me. When I say “crazy,” it’s because the word that people find when you’re trying to build a system that can go against or Google or Microsoft, I mean, data protection or data use, or Facebook, for example. That’s the crazy thing, you know?
Luis Magalhaes: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Emidio: To think that a small, tiny company could possibly become a major player on that field. But that’s the crazier side. But the most important for me and everybody that… this is why I put everybody out and I put new people in. If I need to teach someone how to do something, that’s not the right person. I want people to teach me what to do. I want the marketing guy to teach me how I need to run my campaign. I need the business developer guy to teach me how I need to do this business development strategy so that we can have a go to market strategy that can enter into a specific market.
If the person that come doesn’t know more, and I need to teach people, I don’t need them. So that’s my criteria. I need people to teach me how to do things, because then once I know, I don’t want to teach them what I know. I don’t want to repeat them. I don’t have time with the… When you experience to teach someone, it’s another thing.
I mean, I really need people that can leverage the company into a new level because there’s one thing that I read somewhere, is like, “Alone, you go fast, but together with other people, you move further,” something like that. But it was beautiful sentence, because yeah, alone, I take decisions very quickly, just boom, boom, boom. But it’s just me, just one brain. I need people that have more knowledge, that have more power, and that have more vision than me so that when I see these people, and I get their knowledge and their vision, then my vision and my knowledge goes up again. So that’s the beauty of it.
Luis Magalhaes: Oh yeah. Yeah, makes perfect sense. Actually, my last interview was with the founder of mecasa, the German healthcare company. We talked about how it’s… if you’re leading a company, the preferred status is that you’re the dumbest person in the room, that you surround yourself with people that are more intelligent, more capable, than you are. That’s the best leadership strategy, because that way, you’ll be always learning.
Emidio: Absolutely. And that’s what made me have the team that I have right now. And also the project, how it is right now, is because, yes, it’s people that together with me, every day we are learning, and evolving and creating one of the greatest thing in terms of securing your digital heritage. So that’s beautiful. That’s why I search when I search people remotely.
And that is one thing I forgot, is that in developed countries, we tend to slow… sometimes we slow our brains, not because we want. It’s because you have easy access. You want a coffee, you go out. Well, if you have work and if you have money. But we’re not talking about that. If you want a coffee, you go out. If you want to eat a steak, you go out. If you want to go to school, you just take a bus, and if you want to do this, you just do this.
So your brain doesn’t need to think anymore. And the brain is very lazy, if you don’t ask for it. It adapts very easy. So you’re lazy. So you get into this, like, five, 10, 15 years. So then you go to work, and then it’s like, [inaudible 00:51:50]. In other countries, where if you want to go to school, you need to walk one hour, and then you need to run, because otherwise you’ll be late, and if you lose your bus, then you’re going to lose school, and if you don’t have the school, you don’t have money to eat. So you’re always trying to find a way to make you a better life.
So I think that brains of people are more vivid. They are more into this, “I want to succeed. I want to gain. I want to get there. I want to achieve this, because when I achieve this, I’m going to be able to give, offer my mother this, offer my family this.” So it’s another way of thinking. And that’s one of the beautiful things when you go remotely, because it’s a different way.
And I’ve had this experience. I’ve worked with people in Europe. There are magnificent people in Europe, come on. Okay. But it’s different. It’s another respect. They embrace the work differently. Here, it’s just, “Yeah, okay. Oh, you need a website. Yeah, I can do a website. Yeah, just download the template from [inaudible 00:52:59] and I’ll do some coding, and this is $5000. Yeah, okay. Yeah. Uh-huh (affirmative). Yeah.” But [crosstalk 00:53:05].
Luis Magalhaes: Yeah. Yeah, I can definitely feel you. I can definitely feel that. I’ve experienced that as well. I identify with that. I look for people that are hungry, you know? [crosstalk 00:53:18].
Emidio: Yeah. Beautifully said. Beautifully said, yeah.
Luis Magalhaes: Yeah. So look, this has been great. We’ve covered your contribution, your business contribution, and we’ve covered your thoughts about remote work. But before we finish, and I want to be respectful of your time, because I’m sure that you have other appointments to keep, but I wanted to ask a few questions about Emidio the man, the person, and obviously, how the way you are influenced your business and your leadership style. So I guess that just to start off, what’s the best lesson that your father or father figure ever taught you?
Emidio: You are a very good, how do you say, interviewer, [crosstalk 00:54:02] in English? Because when you said “father,” I would say, “I never met my father.” And then you said “father figure.” So it was a delicate question, but you ended up saying it nice. I never met my father, so I really don’t know how to answer to that question, because I never had a male presence. Of course, my mother had boyfriends and this and that, but they come and go, as we say.
Luis Magalhaes: Well, your mother is good as well, you know. You can tell me then what was the best lesson your mother left you. [crosstalk 00:54:39].
Emidio: Yeah, yeah. But it’s a funny thing, because I was born in Mozambique. When I was five years old, the war started in Mozambique. Then we were refugees in Portugal. We lived in unaffected prisons, and then we lived in factories, until they built some houses, housing for all these people that came from Africa. So it was a difficult start of life. And I think that that’s what made what I am today, is about saying… I was seven, eight, nine, 12 years old, and I was watching all these people living around with no future, and was, like, “I’m not in this world for this. I need to…”
You start watching TV, and you start buying magazines. And I remember I used to see this [inaudible 00:55:35] car. I was dreaming about having that car. I knew I had something to do. I know I could change the world.
But when I say “change the world,” it’s maybe just for one person. I don’t have this feeling of, “Oh, I want to change the world for all humanity.” No, if I can change the world for one person, if I can help her, I’m happy, and then how to replicate that help to 10 and then to a thousand and then to 10,000. I think if we all do things that we can handle by ourselves, if we all help one person, that person will help another one.
So I always had this thing about knowing where I come from, knowing all the things I went through, and how can I put all this heritage of my life and use it as a strength for my behavior as a leader in a company, how to look to someone and say, “Okay, he doesn’t speak well. He doesn’t work well. He doesn’t smell…” whatever idiot thing we can think about someone in the first seconds, to say, “Emidio, wipe that all out. Take one hour. Go out with this guy or with this woman. Go out. Drink a coffee. Talk about all and everything. And then see if this is the person that you want to work with.”
So this is who I am. I think it’s a human that knows that I am a human, that I’m totally imperfect. And that’s what I love. Because being totally imperfect means that I need complementary things, and I need people to complement myself, even being on the personal or love or company side. So by having this way of thinking, I’ve been surrounded with incredible people. So who I am today is because of my friends. They made who I am, because of me, because of my education, because of my dreams, and because of whatever experiences I had. So that’s what made this… a dreamer.
Yeah, my said I am a dream-maker, which I liked. I like the way she sees what I create, because just with a little story… In 2006, I went to a shop, and I started criticizing all the devices. And my mother said, “Shut up.” And I looked at my mother and said, “Hey, what’s wrong?” And she said, “Why are you criticizing?” And I said, “Look, they are all gray.” And then she told me, “But they did it.”
Luis Magalhaes: Wow.
Emidio: “Have you made a phone?” And I was, like, “No.” “So the day you make a phone, you can criticize.” And I looked to her, and I said, “Okay.” So one year later, I was building a phone.
Luis Magalhaes: Nice. Nice. That’s a great story. That’s a great story, man. So, I don’t know really know how to follow that up. But I guess that your mother changed your mind a bit there. So let me ask you, what other things did you change… so let’s say in the last three to five years. In the three to five years, what have you changed your mind the most?
Emidio: I think it’s when you start disconnecting yourself from education and from what you learn in school. And please, I don’t want to get into this discussions of school is not good. School is wonderful, okay?
Luis Magalhaes: Yeah.
Emidio: As long as you don’t forget who you are, and what you want in life, okay?
Luis Magalhaes: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Emidio: Definitely, there are 85% of things that I never use that I learned in school. I’m 45. I never use anything I learned in school. And someone told me, “Oh, really?” And I said, “Yeah. For example, why we need mathematics?” when I was 15, 16 years old. And the guy said, “Yeah, you’re right. You don’t need mathematics.” I said, “No, I don’t need this. Why I need mathematics?” And he said, “Yeah. You’re right. You’re right. You’re right. You’re right. So come with me.” I said, “Okay.” And he went to this ATM, you know?
Luis Magalhaes: Yeah.
Emidio: And he said, “What is this?” I said, “Well, it’s numbers.” “Uh-huh (affirmative). So you don’t need mathematics?” And I was, like, “Well, yes. Yeah, this is mathematics.” One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine is mathematics. So you need mathematics. But you don’t need all the mathematics they teach you.
So learn to take what you need and build what you foresee for your future. That was my change to say, “Okay, I’ve learned these things. People come to me and tells me one thing, teaches me one thing. What can I do with all this in order to create something that corresponds to my visions?”
In the last five, six years, the biggest change was to forget, not forget, just leave in another box what people think, what people say, what opinion means, and in another box, what I think, what is my opinion, and what are my beliefs, and to create a middle box where we mix these things together.
Why these three boxes, is because I don’t let anyone else come into my box, and my box doesn’t go into anyone else’s box. So we create this middle box where we mix. And when I see there is too much of opinion of others, I just close the box, the middle box. So this what made me have a more clear perception and more power in my decisions, because my page… I mean, my paper was white, was empty. So that was my biggest change in the last five, six years.
Luis Magalhaes: Wow.
Emidio: And this is why today I speak like I speak, with confidence. It’s because there’s only one voice in my head.
Luis Magalhaes: Nice. Okay. So moving on to the topic of gifts. So let’s that you have 100 years to buy a gift for each person of your team. What are you going to buy them? What are you going to give them?
Emidio: Quality time. You know, objects and material, each has a time stamp. You know why? Because we have a very bad default in our brains. We get used to things. When we look once, “Wow,” twice, “Wow,” 10, “Well…” 20, “Yeah.” A hundred times, “Whatever.”
Beautiful example. You buy a car, especially men. If you buy a car, every week you’re going to wash the car, clean, wash, clean, wash, clean, wash, clean. You watch the same guy two years after, the car is dirty. It’s not cleaned anymore.
Or if you are a collector, that’s a different thing. But a normal guy, he’s not going to wash the car anymore. In two or three, five years, it’s going to be dirty, and it’s okay. It’s going to be a mess inside. So it’s not the same, because we get used to things.
But there is one thing that stays, and that’s love. Love in any different levels, love of friends, love of family, love of genders, of your companion, whatever love. Love stays. And when I say “quality time,” I think that the money we spend with people we work with, definitely a lot of people would say, “Oh, just give him $20 or a hundred dollars or whatever on their pay. They’re going to be happy they have more money for their…”
Well, it’s one beautiful thing. But actually, you didn’t offer anything from you. You just used money, and you imagined with your ego that the money you gave to this person going to make her happy. You imagined all this.
But what if you say, “Hey, guys”? Yeah? Well, being remote is going to be difficult, but even though, you say, “Okay, now with [easyJet 01:04:00], for example, in Europe, that’s one. If we take two months in advance, it’s, like, €10 sometimes to fly with Ryanair.” You say, “Hey, let’s everybody in Paris.” So you buy 10 tickets, okay, for everybody to meet in Paris.
And then you meet in Paris and you go out. You go out together, and you have this human connection, and you have this quality time where you show them that you love, you care for them, and that you need them and the success of the company is strictly because of them, the fact that we work together. So that quality time, that more human touch, that’s what I try to do with money, yeah, with my employees.
Luis Magalhaes: Got it. That’s a beautiful idea for a gift. I’m going to suggest that to some people.
Luis Magalhaes: So let’s talk about books. Are there any books that you gift? What book or books have you gifted the most? And if you don’t gift books, then what book has impacted you personally the most?
Emidio: You know something? I never read any book. One of the books, and only, that I read, was… How can I translate that in English? Because it was in French. In French, it’s [French 01:05:23], which means… How could you say that? “The job of becoming a man.” So what this guy was writing was that you’re not a man. You become. And then you can become a man maybe at 95 years old or 98 or 60 or whatever. You become a man. You’re not a man. Why I buy this book is because I felt stupid.
Luis Magalhaes: That’s a good reason to buy a book [crosstalk 01:05:55].
Emidio: Yeah. I was in front of my TV, and I was changing the channels, bing, bing, bing, bing. And then I stopped in one channel, and there was this guy that was talking with difficulty. You know, he was, like, [inaudible 01:06:11]. He was talking with difficulty. And I stopped a few seconds, because it’s a human behavior. When someone has some deficiency, we tend to stop and look.
And I put my finger to change the channel again, and before I changed, the reporter asked, “So you as a writer…” And then I changed the channel. And then I said, “He’s a writer?” So that was my stupid moment, because I said, “He is a writer?” That was my stupid moment. Why not?
So I came back again, and I started listening to his story, and I buy his book. He had a problem when he was born. He was without oxygen. So when he came out, he has this deficiency. And he was explaining in the book how he needs to fight every day against what? Against how people look at him. So he said something like, “I need a constellation of stars of help every day so that I can keep my galaxies around me that gives me enough strength to move forward and to create things in life.” [inaudible 01:07:36]. I was, like, [inaudible 01:07:37].
Luis Magalhaes: Wow.
Emidio: And that helped me. That changed my life. That book changed my life. I didn’t finish it, but… because I really understood that what he is living, we are living, not the same thing, but it’s the exact same way. It’s this pressure about opinions, that we need to be better than… do the better, do the best, be successful, have money, get married, have a car, buy a home, and all these rules that are dictated. And you need to fit into the society, because if you don’t fit into the society, then you are seen as an outsider, and then…
So there’s a lot of fights that are related to that book. So yes, I could say that book, yeah, [French 01:08:30]. I don’t know if they translate it in English. I think so. Maybe. That would be beautiful.
Luis Magalhaes: I’ll look for it.
Emidio: But then, that would be…
Luis Magalhaes: I’ll look for it.
Emidio: And the guy is Alexandre Jollien. That’s his name.
Luis Magalhaes: Alexandre Jollien.
Emidio: Jollien. Yeah, yeah.
Luis Magalhaes: Okay.
Emidio: He’s Swiss. He is Swiss, so…
Luis Magalhaes: I’ll look for that. I’m sure I’ll be able to find it and include it in the show. Thank you.
Emidio: You’re welcome.
Luis Magalhaes: Last question, because again, I want to be respectful of your time.
Emidio: It’s okay. It’s okay.
Luis Magalhaes: So if you were organizing a dinner at a Chinese restaurant where you would have all the top technology executives of Silicon Valley, the most important people in decision-making in Silicon Valley, that would be talking about the future of work and remote work, you as the host, you are going to decide what is the fortune-cookie message that they get at the end of their meal. So what is the message that these people are going to read once they finish dinner?
Emidio: “You’re wrong.”
Luis Magalhaes: “You’re wrong”?
Emidio: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Luis Magalhaes: Okay.
Emidio: That would be the message.
Luis Magalhaes: That’s good. That’s good. Would you like to explain, or you want people to get their own conclusions? [crosstalk 01:09:47]?
Emidio: Yeah. Yeah, it would be nice for people to get their own conclusions. But it’s because whatever we discuss today, the beauty of it is to question myself tomorrow again.
Luis Magalhaes: Wow. That’s-
Emidio: And to discuss… So I am wrong today, because this goes so fast that especially in technology, we’re wrong. You know, Steve Jobs… let’s go to Steve Jobs just last time. He said, “Experts are clueless.” And it’s so true. Because the experts, they say, “Yes, this is the technology that you should use for this and for that. And this will not work, because we think that this and this and that.” But they talk like that with the information of today. And the same experts going to contradict themselves in one year. “Yeah, yeah, we saw some problems with the last technology. So we think now…” [crosstalk 01:10:43] So again, yep, “You’re wrong.” [crosstalk 01:10:47] Yeah, yeah, that would be the message for them to rethink.
Luis Magalhaes: So, well, you know what? I hope we won’t be too wrong in telling people, well, that they should listen to us and where they can find you. So if people want to continue the conversation with you, if people want to know what you’re up to, if people want to learn more about your company, where are you going to direct them?
Emidio: Well, either [inaudible 01:11:15] like zebiometrics.com or zenumtechnologies.com. I have my emails there. Or Emidio Sacramento on LinkedIn, which is a more direct way of getting in touch with me.
Luis Magalhaes: Got it. I will link to the links. Emidio, thank you so much. This was a blast. This was a blast. I had a lot of fun. Thank you so much for getting involved.
Emidio: Me too. Me too.
Luis Magalhaes: And see you around.
Emidio: Very much welcome. Thank you very much.
Luis Magalhaes: And so we close another episode of the DistantJob Podcast. And if you enjoyed the episode, please, you can help us out by sharing it on social media. That would be great. It’s how we reach more listeners, and the more listeners we have, the more awesome guests I can get in touch and convince to participate in these conversations that are a joy to have for me, and I hope they’re a joy for you to listen to as well.
You can also help a lot leaving reviews on iTunes or your podcast syndication service of choice. Reviews are surprisingly helpful in helping the podcast get to more listeners. Now, another thing that you might want to do is go to distantjob.com/blog/podcast, click on your favorite episode, on any episode really, and subscribe. By subscribing, you will get a notification whenever a new episode is up, and whenever we get the transcripts of the episode up, so you can actually peruse the conversations in text form.
And of course, if you need to find a great employee for your team, a great remote employee, you should take the whole world into consideration and not just look to hire locally, not just look to hire in your country. Look around the whole world, because that’s the talent pool that contains the best talent. And to help you with that, again, distantjob.com is the perfect place to start. You will tell us who you need, and we will make sure that you get the best possible candidate 40% faster than the industry standard. And with that, I bid you adieu. See you next week on the next episode of the DistantJob Podcast.
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