Luis:
Welcome, ladies and gentlemen, to another episode of the DistantJob Podcast. I am your host, Luis, and with me, as always, I have a great guest on this podcast that’s all about building and leading awesome remote teams. My guest is Dr. Jeb Hurley, and Jeb is the co-founder and CEO of Xmetryx, and he is an expert in fostering trust within remote teams. Prior to Xmetryx, he worked as a GM/VP and CEO at companies ranging from Fortune 100 to VC backed startups. He has also co-founded three software companies and holds a doctorate in business administration with the research focus on human motivation and team effectiveness. He is also the author of two books on crafting extraordinary teams, Team Relationship Management from 2019, and The ONE Habit, 2017. That was a mouthful, Jeb. Thank you for being on the podcast. Thank you for being a guest. Welcome.
Jeb Hurley:
Luis, my pleasure. And thank you.
Luis:
Yeah, so now I’ve spent all my allocated time with the introduction and we can wrap this up. All right, this is a podcast about building and leading awesome remote teams, so you have focused in a lot of your writings, and workshops, and podcast appearances, you’ve talked extensively about leadership, but I really want to start on your building of your own companies. And currently, you being the co-founder and CEO of Xmetryx. Tell me about remote work. How has remote work made your businesses possible or helped you make them better?
Jeb Hurley:
The great question, and yes, in particular with Xmetryx, the genesis of the company was born out of the decades I’ve had working both remotely and with mixed remote and local teams, but also a deep curiosity about why some teams thrive and others really struggle, sometimes to survive or just struggle in mediocrity. And I noticed in my work, prior to founding Xmetryx, that with remote teams, virtual teams, those challenges were greater. And I couldn’t find an answer really as to why. And that led to first, my deep dive in my doctoral work, looking at the intersection of human motivation, team effectiveness, in particular remote team effectiveness.
My work was done with virtual teams. And realizing that at the core of that was the challenges of remote leaders to see issues, particularly behavioral issues that were occurring on their teams that would degrade or diminish trust and ultimately performance, and that there was a path to improving that. And that led to the creation of Xmetryx and our TrustMetryx software platform that helps teams to see behavioral issues early and address them quickly in order to improve inclusion on remote teams, engagement among the people on those teams, and ultimately the performance of the team itself.
Luis:
All right. So you focused mainly on your most recent baby, Xmetryx. So tell me a bit how that team is structured. What percentage of it is remote and what is handled remotely mostly?
Jeb Hurley:
Yeah, well for Xmetryx, we’re an early stage startup and we are remote first. So our team is distributed part in the US, part in Europe. And yeah, so we’re remote first and intend to stay that way, not out of a religious conviction that we have to be remote, but I’ve just found that when you do it well, your ability to find and attract the best talent to the mission, the passion that you put into developing a new company is far greater than if you restrict yourself to one geography.
Luis:
Yeah. So actually, good thing that you talked about that freedom of hiring, because I was reading a couple of your articles, and I remember that there was one where you spoke to the … that there were specific personalities, work style preferences, and a certain comfort with technology that was important for people to work remotely. It’s not like you can just grab someone that’s excellent at what they do in an office and know that that person will transitionally perfect to the remote space, there’s a certain set of additional skills that need to exist, and maybe even personality types, and work style preferences, as you put it. So I was wondering if you could expand a bit more on that. What do you look for? When you’re finding people to integrate to your team, what are the things that you’re looking for personality-wise, work style-wise, et cetera?
Jeb Hurley:
So you’re absolutely right, there are a lot of dimensions to the makeup of what ultimately becomes a very high performing remote team that has created a very high trust culture. At a fundamental level, you’re right, there are personality attributes or traits, things like people are conscientious. They have a sense and an ability to read cultural differences. But I will tell you the number one thing that I’ve found to be essential when you get above skills, you get beyond just personality types, because all of that interplays in different ways, depending on the makeup of a team, it is empathy. It’s the ability to relate to someone across time zones, across cultures, perhaps across generations. And the higher degree of empathy that someone demonstrates, they will tend to have defaults like if I hear something on a call, I don’t assume someone had bad intent, I assume someone had good intent.
And then I figure it out. I follow it up because maybe they didn’t have good intent, but that empathy is what enables us as humans to work effectively with people both early on, which is what’s known as fast or quick trust, but also developed more sustainable trust over time on a team. So I would say that there’s a lot, and I’ve written a lot, and there’s a lot written about all of these dimensions of makeups of the human to human dimensions of remote work, but I have found empathy to be the number one characteristic that if people don’t have it, you’re likely to have challenges. If they do have it, you need other things, but you can build on them.
Luis:
So obviously you’ve done academic research on this, and so I do want to probe a bit deep. You’ve mentioned conscientiousness. That’s a Big Five … That’s a Big Five trait. And I’m more used to companies, including DistantJob, our company, we usually have people do the Myers-Briggs test, just because that seemed to be more approachable. And obviously not as a way to label people, that’s not the point, but as a way of trying to figure out what’s the best way to work with them. And I’ve increasingly been reading more and more literature on Big Five.
So I’m wondering if there is any way you can correlate that. I don’t think that Big Five has anything specifically pointing to empathy, I think it’s probably … I mean you’re the one with the research, so you should tell me, but I would assume that it has something to do with high openness to experience and low neurocity, something like that, right? So what do you feel about this? The trend that we had before of looking at people from a Myers-Briggs angle, and how much sense does it make to switch to Big Five? And how does that relate with your empathy point?
Jeb Hurley:
Okay. Wow, you want to work right into my wheelhouse around behavioral science, so I’m happy to, without going too deep into it, but for the audience, to make it simple, you can think of it as two buckets. So the Myers-Brigg typology, which was developed by Carl Jung in the 1930s or ’20s, I believe, but that’s a trait-based theory. And the Big Five is about personality type. And the reason that’s important is that when people do Myers-Briggs, there’s often a misunderstanding that the purpose is to really understand other people, and I would argue that it’s more to appreciate differences with other people, but the traits themselves, it’s more like looking in the mirror, and who am I? And what are the characteristics that make up my individuality? Whereas the Big Five and looking at the type has much more to do with the way we interact with the world, which is why I default to …
And empathy is indeed a mix of conscientiousness and some of the other elements of personality that if you’re using the Big Five from a personality type, you would look at a mix of elements that someone who is typically empathetic to others, particularly others that they don’t necessarily know well, that those are what exhibit themselves as opposed to, again going back to Myers-Briggs or traits, things which are more given towards more of an introvert or more of an extrovert. Those don’t really dictate to the degree to which I’m going to exhibit empathy. They do reflect how I will participate, how I’ll process information, and how I’ll deal with things like stress.
So in contemporary, what are known as psychometrics, really it’s the blending of types and traits is most effective if you want to think of the makeup of whether it’s a team or a dinner party. A dinner party that goes well will likely have a mix of people with traits and types that they connect, and they connect on different levels. You can have two introverts who go off to the corner of the room, and really hit it off, and love it, but they’re not going to be the center of attention in front of the table, but they will likely demonstrate personality type where they’re open to meeting someone new. They’re low in, as you pointed out, neuroticism, higher in open to new experiences, as an example.
Luis:
Yeah. Well, that’s interesting. I would think that openness to experience would correlate with empathy quite a bit, but again, I might be wrong. I’m just a layman here. So that always fascinates me because, again, DistantJob is a recruitment company, and one of the things that we try really hard to do to differentiate ourselves from other companies is that we hone in on cultural fit. So to us, it’s really important. That’s why we usually have deep interviews with the people that are hiring through us to figure out what the company culture is so we can find a good fit. So the psychological aspect is very interesting to us, but again, as we are also a remote-only company, and we only find people who work remotely, we’re also interested in the piece of the puzzle that gets people to perform well at remote work. Again, you can correct me if I’m wrong because you’re certainly more up on the literature, but usually when I am looking at someone to be a good worker, conscientiousness is at the top of my list, but I wonder if there is anything similar when you’re talking about interacting at a distance.
Jeb Hurley:
Yes, there is. And I guess I would pivot a little bit in that often what does tend to happen when people were thinking about building remote or virtual teams, or mixed teams is personality attributes, traits, and types, all play into it. So there’s no question about that. But often the most overlooked dimension is deeper. It goes to the core motivation, or needs that we all have as human beings when it comes to our work. And at the center of that is purpose. And what I’ve found with and advised, whether it’s in the case of hiring, first and foremost, hire for purpose. If the reason why someone connects with what you do as a company or with a company you’re placing someone in, if they connect with that at a deep level, in terms of their personal values, in terms of why they want to do what they want to do, you have a much greater chance of having someone be successful in that environment. And then making sure that the personality attributes and the work ethic, et cetera, fit.
But by far purpose combined with the level of skills or competencies that someone has developed in order to realize that purpose or meaning they find in the work they do, and the level of autonomy that they expect to be able to do that has a much higher predictiveness or correlation with success in a role. So for example, if you have someone who finds great connection with the mission of a company and they’ve got great skill sets, but if they go into that environment and are micromanaged, they’re out the door in probably maybe not weeks, but certainly months, and within a year or so, they’ll be gone because that fundamental need that motivates us at work is so important. So I think that the conversation around personality typologies and traits is an important one, but it’s still sits above the motivation, why it is we do what we do. Why do we work? And in remote work, that dimension of purpose is even more important, because if you get that wrong and someone is sitting halfway around the world or across a country, keeping them engaged becomes very, very challenging if you’re a remote team leader.
Luis:
And it might be that someone is really good that their work, but the reason they work is because they like to be in an office shoulder to shoulder with other people, and that’s not going to translate well to remote work. So that very skilled person will actually be a very bad remote worker.
Jeb Hurley:
Exactly. And going back to really getting at where someone finds meaning and purpose in what they do, and if a big part of that is the interaction with and feedback from peers sitting in the same office, you don’t want to put that person by themselves sitting off on a beach somewhere. It may be beautiful, but you’re right, they’re not going to be very happy or very effective.
Luis:
Yeah. So I was wondering, regarding what you just said about purpose, it’s a pleasure, and very easy to work, and very easy to figure out when someone has purpose. I mean I’ve had people in my team that I gave them a task or a responsibility, and they were just bright. Their eyes shine, and you could see that. That’s the ideal situation, and usually you want to look for that when you’re hiring, but it’s not always that easy because sometimes when people are in a job interview, they are in a certain amount of stress. In an essence, they’re trying to fake something that they don’t necessarily have to fake. So it’s important to be able to see through that, but it also happens that you have a team, let’s say in my case, my example, I’m more familiar with marketing teams and writing teams, and you usually hire someone who is clearly highly intelligent, and highly competent, but there are a lot of different projects that you can assign that person, and you can’t really figure out what makes them shine, because sometimes they don’t even know.
Sometimes you can just resolve it by talking to them and saying, “Hey, there are these five areas where we want to act, which one would be your dream project?” And sometimes they can pick them, but other times they don’t really know. So is there any way, especially considering doing it virtually, doing it remotely, to help a highly skilled, highly intelligent worker find their purpose within the team, within the company?
Jeb Hurley:
Yes, and that’s a great question because I think so many of us struggle with that question. And often it’s put in the … People are told, “Find your passion,” and you just say, “Well, okay. That sounds great, but seriously.”
Luis:
When people tell me that, I usually say, “Okay, it’s drugs, sex, and rock and roll for the rest of my life.”
Jeb Hurley:
Exactly.
Luis:
There we go. Now give me a paycheck.
Jeb Hurley:
It’s not particularly actionable advice. It sounds good, but it’s unfortunately cliché. But purpose is a little more interesting because it is a fundamental need that we all have. And so let me give you an example of what I do in interviewing, and it’s heavily influenced by behavioral interviewing. And so what I’ll do is most people come into an interview with a resume, with a CV that’s based on a series of time-based experiences, and they have, “Here was my title. Here’s what I did,” and I turned that inside out. And this is something that’s very effective when I’m mentoring folks as well that I ask them to do is if you take that chronological resume, and instead of looking at roles, and experience, and results, look at the why. Why did you make the decisions you did? And what was it that turned you on or turned you off in each of those as you go through time?
Because our careers are their journeys, and they have a narrative. It’s like writing a play. It’s the book of Jeb or the book of Luis. And there’s themes in that play. And when you help someone identify the themes, because we all come back to … because just as humans, we’re creatures of habit. We will come back to the themes that we enjoy the most. And when you uncover that with someone, you’ll find the path to purpose. And that’s effective in helping if you’re coaching, doing career mentoring with someone, to help them find that, or in an interview, if you really want to challenge someone, have them talk about the two or three themes that define their career narrative. Don’t tell me about how wonderful you were in job X, Y, and Z, tell me what turns you on and turns you off. And someone that’s very self-aware will do well with that. Someone who pretty much has no clue, they’ve just moved from place to place a few more euros an hour, a few more dollars an hour, they’ll really struggle with talking about why they’ve done what they’ve done.
Luis:
Yeah. That’s funny. I was thinking about that I should present you my CV, because it has everything from writing reviews for video game magazines to dental surgery. So you can have a go at that. Should be interesting.
Jeb Hurley:
Indeed. But again, who you are is what’s set beneath that that drove those decisions. And that’s how you get to purpose, and really get an understanding of someone else and where they find purpose. And once someone’s on your team, I developed a little tool called the motivational triangle, but when you engage in that conversation with each member of your team in terms of where are they finding meaning and purpose in their work, the level to which their skills meet or need to be developed, and the level of freedom they have to pursue their job, as you said, people will walk on water. I mean they start their day energized, have a fulfilling day, and click off of Zoom at night feeling good about their day.
Luis:
Yeah, that’s definitely a best case scenario. That’s what we all should aim for in our remote teams. So since we’re already there, why don’t we talk a bit about your relationship with your remote team? How do you manage your team? What’s the typical day like? What’s the typical week like?
Jeb Hurley:
So I’m going to give that answer in a more collage of experiences, because it does differ a good bit from running a large cross-cultural team in Asia, as I did recently for HP, versus doing a startup where you’ve got a few people scattered around, but there are some very common elements there and they revolve primarily around three … If you think about this is the team table, and these are the table manners that lead to really an extraordinary team, a high trust culture on remote teams. And there’s three behaviors that I am very … I don’t want to … I don’t want to say fixated on, but I’m pretty relentless in making sure that these table manners are there. The first one is making sure that there’s great clarity around what are called norms, but think of them as the ground rules of which the team will operate. These are the things like there’s no place for bias on this team. Psychological safety is a given on this team. Everyone will respect the voice of everyone else around the virtual team table.
And what’s most important about that is it’s not my rules, it’s not as a team leader or as a leader of an organization, but rather that everyone on that team views those values as the reason they’re there. Those are the reasons, and they assess each other, and they guide each other based on that set of core values. And that is so fundamental to both creating and sustaining trust and maintaining it on a team because it’s those breakdowns in values that people … Suddenly someone starts to gossip about someone else who was on a call, and they send a Slack or a message to someone, those are the behaviors that are silent, and they’re like a disease that begins to slowly diminish and degrade the trust on a team. And ultimately, that leads to a drop in engagement performance, and results in teams that just muddle in mediocrity. So number one is get that foundation of values and those core norms. The second is recognizing that a team is made up of individuals, and that you’ve got to pay attention to what inspires and motives each person on your team.
When I’m working with teams, one of the questions I’ll ask the leader is, “Can you honestly look at me or look in the mirror and say that you know what gets each member of your team up and energized every day when they come to work? And if you can’t do that, why not?” Because what is it that you … What aren’t you talking about with each of your team members? And everybody’s different. What’s going to turn me on versus you, it’ll be different, even on the same team. And that goes back to that motivational triangle that I described earlier. I won’t repeat that, but getting at where someone finds purpose in meaning, investing in their skills, and giving them the appropriate level of freedom, and that’s really important because you can go quickly from micromanaging someone who has the skills and finds the purpose to having someone feel like they’re being tossed under the bus because they may find purpose in their role, but they’re new and they feel like their boss is just putting them out there to fail.
And so balancing that little triangle is the second table manner of really great remote team leadership. And then third is recognizing that the very best team leaders in general, but especially remote teams, they focus on coaching the relationships on that team. They understand that their job isn’t to give orders and dictate, at least not in today’s world, maybe in the 20th century, but it is to understand where gaps are showing up in between what people expect of one another versus what they experience, and helping people close those gaps. And that was a lesson I learned in my doctoral work, my research, I used, as my control, elite military units, and OR and ER teams. So an Israeli fighter pilot squadron. I studied Navy seal teams. And one of the things that … I was having dinner one night with a squad from a Israeli fighter pilots … a squad of fighter pilots, and we were talking about trust, and we were talking about relationships.
And they said, “Look, we’ve got the biggest egos in Israel. We are the 1% of the 1%, and we know it. But when we go into the flight room before an operation, there’s not a ego allowed in this room because we know that if there’s a gap between what we expect of everyone on this squad and the experience that happens when we go operational, if there’s a gap there that we don’t close, then the likelihood of someone not coming home just went up dramatically.” And then one of them, being very Israeli, he said, “And I don’t want to face that person’s mother, that we didn’t get it right before we went out.” And so that’s the embodiment of relationship coaching is it’s not about trying to be perfect as people, because we’re not, we’re human beings and we have this tremendous ability to find ways to disrupt relationships and to sabotage trust. The best teams are really good at closing those gaps because theirs or someone else life depends on it. So those are the three table manners that make the difference.
Luis:
Makes absolute sense. What we need to do is tell people that if they do a bad job, we’re going to kill one of their teammates. And that’s it.
Jeb Hurley:
Yeah, I don’t recommend that, by the way. You said that, not me.
Luis:
That’s it.
Jeb Hurley:
But if you think about moving from the world in which their own lives or someone else’s life depends on trust, when you bring that to our world, to the corporate or the business world, it’s not about people’s lives, it is about people’s wellbeing. And that by doing that, by creating that trust, not only do you get better performance, but they have better lives at work, and that’s really important and powerful.
Luis:
Yeah, absolutely. That’s a great point to mull over. And one of the great things about remote work is that it does allow us to offer a better life at work.
Jeb Hurley:
It can, yes.
Luis:
It can. So I want to be respectful of your time, so I think we could wind off into some rapid fire questions. The questions are rapid fire, but the answers don’t need to be. You can expand as much as you like.
Jeb Hurley:
Please.
Luis:
So keeping on with the team of how you usually manage your day or your team, when you start off your day and you turn on your computer, what are the apps that automatically pop up and are auto-open? When you open your browser, what are the tabs that are there?
Jeb Hurley:
Oh my goodness, there’s a lot of them, so I won’t go into all of them, but if I think about the remote stack of tools, it will be Slack, from a communications along with email. So that’s the communications pieces. We use HubSpot and Asana, so we’ve got a couple of team tools that provide a quick view of what’s going on from a customer standpoint, what’s going on from an internal team and project standpoint. And we have TrustMetryx, because we’re regularly getting feedback from the remote teams around how they’re doing. And I use a dashboard of monitoring the key metrics, so that would be the other, which is looking at how we’re doing as we’re growing a company. Those key metrics in terms of the number of new reach out, the number of new contacts, conversions to how many trials are going on. So I’ve got a business dashboard. So those are really the main. I look at a combination of communications, key processes, and people, would be those three dynamics that I pay a lot of attention to.
Luis:
Awesome. So speaking of people, if you had $100 to spend with each person working for you, what would you buy for them? And no, you can’t give them the money, or an Amazon gift card or equivalent, and you can’t ask them what they want. You need to buy in bulk, so to say. But it doesn’t need to be physical. It can be software or experience.
Jeb Hurley:
No, I would buy them lunch.
Luis:
Okay.
Jeb Hurley:
Because that represents time, quality time, to get at who we are as people and how we work together more effectively.
Luis:
100 bucks is quite a lunch.
Jeb Hurley:
Yeah, I might break it into a couple of lunches [crosstalk 00:00:32:00]. Or if it has to be spent all at once, a nice dinner.
Luis:
Okay, yeah. So what about yourself? What purchase has made your work life easier or more productive in the past year?
Jeb Hurley:
Oh goodness. In the last year, I find that actually it’s pretty pedestrian in that, particularly as it turned out with the pandemic, just simply upgrading my work environment in terms of laptop, audio, all of the capabilities that now enable us to remote work very effectively. So really the basics in that case. Nothing fancy.
Luis:
What did you pick?
Jeb Hurley:
Oh, so actually I use a MacBook Pro, which I’m on right now, along with a Yeti high performance microphone. I also have an HP, one of their new made in leather professional laptops that I love to travel with, it’s just a gorgeous piece of equipment. Yeah, and then some big screens for doing multitasking.
Luis:
How many screens?
Jeb Hurley:
I typically work with two screens. I’m not a developer, so my CTO, she’s always working with, I don’t know … She’s probably got 60 inches of screen space, but I find two screens, particularly when I’m doing workshops or webinars, things like that, that it’s useful to have two screens.
Luis:
Yeah, that was my biggest game changer over the past year. Second screen. Really useful. So what about books? What book or book have you gifted the most? Apart from your own books, of course.
Jeb Hurley:
Excuse me. Yes. Okay, so you took away-
Luis:
Yeah, well that’s easy answer.
Jeb Hurley:
Yeah, my own book was the easy one. Other than that, I-
Luis:
That’s why I recommend everyone write a book. If nothing else, you get an easy Christmas and birthday present.
Jeb Hurley:
Yeah, exactly. Although that doesn’t work so well with family. They’re like, “What, again? No, that’s really lame,” but otherwise, they tend to fall into a couple of subject categories. I guess I’m a fan of Malcolm Gladwell’s work because it brings a lot of behavioral science down to a layman’s level, which I think is great. The most recent one though has been Team of Teams by Stanley McChrystal. He’s the retired formal general that headed the joint special operations command in Iraq and Afghanistan, and it’s a tremendous story of how to move from silos and hierarchies to a team of teams that ultimately defeated Al-Qaeda in that region. And then most most recently has been the History of Bourbon, which I found just absolutely fascinating and I’ve been recommending it, but a really interesting story that looks at the history of what is a quintessential perhaps American beverage, but with roots around the globe.
Luis:
Yeah, I do enjoy myself some bourbon, or at least I used to … or at least I used to. I’m told that Jack Daniels, although most people call it a bourbon, it actually isn’t.
Jeb Hurley:
Yes, there are many late night debates, I think, over bourbon and whiskeys, over what is the =
Luis:
Exactly.
Jeb Hurley:
Like many fine spirits, the waters are muddy, and they get muddier than more people drink and discuss it.
Luis:
Exactly, but it’s all good. So final question, let’s say that you are hosting a dinner where there’s going to be a round table about remote work and the future of work. And in attendance are the tops CEOs, XOs, the hiring managers, basically the trendsetters, the decision-makers in top technological companies. Here’s the twist, you’re hosting the dinner in the Chinese restaurant. So as the host, you get to pick the fortune cookie message to go inside the fortune cookies. What is the message going to be?
Jeb Hurley:
Oh, that’s a great big question. It would be a very simple message. It’s all about trust.
Luis:
Nice. That’s a good message to end on. That’s great. All right, so Jeb, it was a pleasure having you. Now, I do want you to tell my listeners where can they find you? Where can they continue the conversation? Where can they learn more about Xmetryx and yourself?
Jeb Hurley:
Great, thank you.
Luis:
Jeb Hurley:
Our website is www xmetryx.com. You can also find me either on LinkedIn, at just Jeb Hurley. You’ll find me there, as well as drjebhurley.com, which is my personal website. So those would be the three places I would encourage your listeners, particularly those who are interested in building high trust teams and team cultures, feel free to reach out. I’m always delighted to take questions and to connect with folks that share that passion.
Luis:
Awesome. We will include that in the show notes. So Jeb, it was an absolute pleasure having you. Thank you so much.
Jeb Hurley:
Yes, thank you so much. I really appreciate the opportunity to spend some time with you and your audience. Thank you.
Luis:
It was my pleasure. Ladies and gentlemen, this was the DistantJob Podcast, a podcast about building and leading awesome remote teams. See you next week.
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